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WGT: Purpose questing with Sarah Rozenthuler PART 2 [transcript]

Updated: Aug 26, 2021

Please enjoy this transcript of my the second part of my conversation with Sarah Rozenthuler.


Part two of my conversation with Sarah Rozenthuler the author of Powered by Purpose: Energise your People to do Great work about, surprise surprise, purpose. In part 2 we cover how leaders can start identifying their purpose, what business practices we need to evolve, change or leave behind, and how to work on purpose in a remote or hybrid setting.

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Welcome to the second part of my conversation with Sarah Rozenthuler, where we talk about how leaders can start identifying their purpose, the purpose of their teams and organizations, what business practices we believe need to evolve, change, or we need to leave them behind altogether and how to work on purpose in a remote or hybrid setting.

For those who have not listened to the first part of my conversation with Sarah as she is a chartered psychologist, leadership consultant.

And a dialogue coach with a number of years of international experience, working with some bigger organizations, such as BP and discovery. She also founded a consulting company called bridgework in 2007 to inspire leaders and strengthen them organizations so that they become a force for good in the world.

But she's also the author of pod by purpose, a book available Amazon in print and ebook format. I highly suggest that you read an amazing, fascinating read.

His second part of my conversation with Sarah Rozenthuler. Enjoy.

Lech: [00:01:18] When an organization or leader wants to do some self-reflection and in terms of purpose and around purpose that they want to do some, some work.

What are some of the questions I can, I guess they can ask themselves first to start them on that journey towards identifying the purpose to work, start, start having conversation about purpose. What would you say those questions could be? That they ask themselves

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:01:44] Yeah, well, I think it can be a very interesting exercise and quite a simple one to, you know, take a big sheet of paper, draw your leadership lifeline or your lifeline you know, capture some of the key turning points along the way. And you might reflect on. You know, moments where you felt really seen by people or where you felt actually really energized back to that theme.

You might also ask yourself the question, what have been my, and I'm going to use the phrase crucible moments. And that's a phrase coined by bill George, the writer who writes about authentic leadership and purpose and finding your north star and his perspective and his colleagues perspective. Is it these crucible moments, which is where we sort of feel plunged into the fire and really tested by life can actually really give a signal.

A glimpse as well of what our purpose is, because I think you sort of referred a bit to this earlier, you know, these experiences like those shocking events or things that are quite difficult can burn off some of the dross. And then it's actually easier to see, well, in essence, who am I? You know, what am I about?

What am I doing here? And so in my work with leaders and in my own reflection, just digging into some of those crucible moments has really been valuable in terms of, again, going on that purpose quest.

Lech: [00:03:28] I guess these turning points. Absolutely. Right though. It's so difficult for us to understand and, and notice those points. An interesting point conversation, topic. I, I often like to ask guests on the podcast. If they're working with organizations, if it's a case study type of interview, I actually purposely asked the question, what went wrong?

What are the, some of the things that completely just derailed your team, you, the organization, whatever, where have you messed up? Because that's where the true learnings really are. It's all nice and great to celebrate successes. And we definitely need to do that more, but we also need to talk about where we've gone wrong.

Where we've made a mistake and it just completely went sideways so quickly. And where you, things just gone sideways because that's just the reality of how things are, is you can't predict anything because otherwise, if you want, if you spend time trying to predict everything, you won't make any progress.

If that was the case, we'd probably still be sitting in caves around a campfire, but it's, it's, it's having that. And I always ask the, I sometimes think I'll turn it into a segment of the podcast. It's like we messed up and, and just share it, share your stories. I'm still looking for organizations. If any organizations, anyone listening has is brave enough, because I think it takes courage to do, especially talk about, about openly, externally, not just internally in the organization.

I wholeheartedly invite you to come, come forward and, and have a chat. And I'll, I'll, I'll give you the mic and it's the medium for you to, to share what, what, you've, what you've done wrong. What's gone. Not as you expected and what you've learned from it. I think that's an important thing. The other, the other thing that I, a note that just flashed on my hand and I'm purposely kind of bouncing around a little bit and I'd like us to go a little bit back probably about 40 50 years.

Cause I'm a big believer that what we're, how we build our organizations and how we lead people is the result natural result, I guess, of previous generations, previous decades of how we used to build organizations back then. And we, and we just repurpose the way we do that without evolving it and humans technology.

And then a lot of other things have evolved much quicker than our organizations. And there are certain businesses business practices there. You've already mentioned like shareholder supremacy that we, we struggle with because that's why we put numbers first ahead of people. And. I know you mentioned Milton Friedman in your book who who's popularized just rightly or wrongly.

If I, if I remember basically shareholder supremacy, putting, putting people behind the form so numbers we had before people, what are some of the other practices linked to purpose as well that you think would need to ponder? We know we need to explore evolving, changing, leaving behind.

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:06:25] Yeah, well, I think there is this growing. Movement away from what is often characterized as command and control leadership, which I think, you know, has its roots in much of the military context. And, you know, the military has actually been amazing in some ways for creating innovations in management and leadership.

So just to acknowledge that, but I think in our increasingly networked world, that style of leadership is increasingly incomplete and limited. And so there are new ways of leading that feel much more appropriate for these times. And I think there's different dimensions to that. And so if I just pick one of them, that's really close to my heart, it would be about leaders being more able to engage in authentic dialogue.

And have conversations where it's possible to have quite divergent views in the room. So for example, you might have in the same organization, people who strongly believe that profit maximizing nation is still the way to be going about business. As usual with other leaders who were saying actually more of the territory, we've been exploring it's people before profit, you know, prophecy, profit is absolutely necessary, but let's prioritize the people.

So being able to have a dialogue where you can get that diversity of perspective and the collective wisdom in the room. So that actually any decisions that are made coming out of that, you've got. Everybody on board, you know, you haven't then got the corridor conversations where all the opposing is happening and all the resistance to change.

I just think authentic dialogue is at the heart of what's needed in business and amongst leaders going forwards. And that is a whole skillset in and of itself.

Lech: [00:08:42] It definitely definitely is. And one question that again, popped into my, as you were talking about that dialogue, that discussion, which is something that is now so important than any aspect in every aspect of our lives and not to do COVID and things like that. No, it's just the society, the state of the society that we're, we've got at the moment across the globe, not just UK EU, Poland, the us all over the shop.

We just need that dialogue. How do you have that dialogue, that discussion? How do you work on purpose within your organization in a remote setting? Because two years ago, we should probably have pondered that question. Now we must ponder and address that question. How, how can we do stuff.

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:09:35] well, what I want to say is it's absolutely possible. A full answer to that question would probably keep the here for a good number of hours,

you know, I'm just thinking recently I worked with an organization. I won't name them. Because of confidentiality reasons you know, an organization of about 50 people, 50 employees, and we had a session where everybody was present, including the two founders and the managing director and all the senior team and all the other people in the organization.

And it was a dialogue about that organization's purpose. And, you know, did they nail the purpose? As a result of, I think we're on teams together for four hours overall. No, but did they get to the territory of their purpose and, you know, some real insights that a smart on.

what happened was a smaller group then went and took those insights and really distilled them and actually coming out of that, they have crafted a purpose statement for themselves.

And so in this, you know, in the context of hybrid working or even full digital working, there's an art to it there's a science to it as well, but it's absolutely possible. I think if there's a willingness to put the time aside, slow down, create an environment where. All the different voices are welcomed and valued.

And also give people something fun and energizing to do, you know, ask them to bring something to the session, you know, an object that they can share on the screen that they think reflects the organization's purpose. All of that is possible because I've seen it and I've done it. And it's true that there's a, there is a craft to making that work.

Lech: [00:11:38] it does. Let's face it. This is not an easy topic to talk about in the first place. It's not an easy topic to, to work on. It's uncomfortable. It's difficult mostly because you have to ask yourself not just the organization or about the organization. We have to ask yourself some very, very difficult questions.

And I guess that's probably one of the blockers that I see to this happening. And this brings me on to the connection I was, I've been trying to draw between purpose, individual purpose, but also organizational purpose and the connection or the link to self-leadership because the more I work with clients and or individually, and as organizations in the aspects of broadly company, culture and leadership.

The self-leadership aspect of every individual just continues to crop up in my mind. It's not something that is being talked about enough. And I wonder what, what is your, what's your observation on that? How important is being aware of yourself and being able to lead yourself? Because if you can't lead yourself, how can you lead other people effectively?

You can do it. Yes, of course, because so many people do do it relatively successfully, but how much better could it be if they did explore that element of self-leadership what's your observation?

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:13:03] Oh, I think self-leadership is crucial. I mean, I wouldn't be. I'm not really in a job but I wouldn't be doing the work I'm doing these days without some degree of that, without having cultivated some degree of that, I'm still learning myself how all of that works. And I think this into, I think the intersection that you're pointing to here, which is the intersection between personal purpose and organizational purpose is a really rich area to explore.

And I was fascinated recently. I. Did a talk for the CIPD here in the UK about purpose. And there was a fellow speaker Patty hall, who from Unilever, he's the VP of the future of work. And he was talking about all the work they've been doing at Unilever to support individual, to support employees, exploring their personal purpose.

And there was an acceptance that, that exploration might lead to some people deciding to leave Unilever because maybe they. You know, discovered or admitted to themselves that there wasn't an alignment and that wasn't seen as a bad outcome. And it was really refreshing to hear that because of course, that is a possibility.

If we do an authentic exploration, we might think actually I'm not in the right role or not in the right job. And nevermind if job crafting is, you know, gonna going to bridge the gap. And so, but I think the upside of that, and I'm guessing this is why Unilever is willing to make such a big investment in that area is actually, if you have got people with that sense of alignment, organizational purpose, my purpose, then, then you'll have people who are energized to do great work.

They'll be willing to give the extra mile, go the extra mile when they need to. And so I can really understand that an organization would make that investment and I would really encourage other organizations to do that.

Lech: [00:15:25] one of my favorite ways of looking at in a way, what you've just described is we are all individuals and we all need to grow well. We've got our own paths. We are on. Separate trains. However, you want to look at it in terms of growth and being on the path, we have different speeds, different ways we want to grow.

And this is true of personal, personal relationships, but relationships with an organization as well. And the most important thing is that growth is individual, but ideally we want to all grow in the same direction. And I guess that's the alignment that you're talking about, that we that's our north star.

We might have different ways of getting there might have different needs, but it's just getting to that point together. And this, this is probably my favorites reflection or quote, part of the book where you talk about I think again, you, you might be quoting somebody. I think it was Richard Barrett that made this observation in terms of the performance of a business is determined by the unmet emotional needs of the founder or the CEO.

And just one of those things that you read a sentence and you just go, wow. You know, shattered glass breaking you, you reach a different level and you just go out it's so, so important. And again, that leads back to the self-leadership part of it. And, and I found it a fascinating perspective to take

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:16:53] Yeah, I mean, I certainly have seen it in some organizations where for example, the founders have set up a business. And the, and it might be quite an unconscious intention is to create a kind of family field, a family environment that they didn't have growing up in their family of origin. Now that can be very galvanizing.

It could create a real sense of belonging for people, you know, and I've seen the, sort of the shadow side of that as well. You know, where the unmet need of the founder creates an environment where for example, there are favorites. You know, and other people who don't feel like, you know, the favorite child it creates difficult dynamics.

So it's about, I mean, ultimately it's about creating healthy working environments and, oh my goodness. You know, you could say that there are unmet needs running in all of us. So again, we're back to the self leadership angle, the self-awareness angle, you know, let's each one of us do our inner work with the support of whether it's a coach, a therapist, a trusted friend to just shine some lights on those Shadia areas of ourselves so that other people are less effected by them.

I mean, that for me is, is healthy leadership behavior. Yeah.

Lech: [00:18:27] it would be a fascinating world to live in. If we did 25% more self-reflection and be aware of the needs met and unmet and how they drive us. Because as you said, very good example, the unmet needs driving a business is not necessarily a bad thing. Can lead to some fascinating results that can change, not just the organization, but change the environment.

Change the world. On the flip side, the negative connotation, the inevitably negative impact can be there as well. If we did more of that, it would be, it would be amazing. I'd like to shift us again. To a completely different topic. Something that's been on my mind, mostly because I'm I've lived in the UK for, for many years, but I'm originally Polish and I I've, I've been brought up and I've been spending more time in college and I've been noticing certain elements of the structure of the, tell it to the society that have always annoyed me a little bit, that I didn't like that I managed to kind of change in my perspective in the times that I lived abroad.

But with that connection I'm curious about purpose in organizations beyond places like the UK. Do you S. Developed world, if you, if you want to go, however you want to describe that. And countries like, for example, east Eastern European countries, where companies are driven still by money, where society is driven by fixed and skin scars, scarcity, mindsets, prevail predominantly, and we don't have that.

So purpose it's alien concept. don't know what organizations, what countries do you work, but how does pur purposeful being purpose led and organization transfer across borders and across cultures?

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:20:16] you're reminding me that I was asked a question recently. That was something that I, well isn't purpose just for the privilege or the elite. You've maybe got the time to reflect on, you know, on such things. And actually what I thought about was you might be familiar with the Viktor Frankl's book.

Man's. Search for meaning. And actually how, you know, the body of work he went on to develop is all about high finding a deeper reason and meaning to exist actually, you know, confer survival survivability. And I think that's really present in Victor Frankel's work. And in that way, I think meaningful work and a sense of purpose is the birthright of every single human being, which have a corner of the world they're in.

So like that would be for me the starting point. And then of course, you know, in our global world where there are such inequality's, you know, particularly I think between the north and the global safe It is not a level playing field at all. And I was, as you asked the question, I was thinking of the story that was in the news back in March, where Emmanuelle Sabre was ousted from being CEO of Dunoon who owned the brands Evian, for example, and active and.

In a way, it was the loss of a real champion of purpose-driven business because Faber really got the importance of paying attention to environmental and social credentials, not just profit maximization. So it was a very interesting from a purpose driven perspective, business perspective. It was an interesting story to see play out in the media and some of the some of his opponents and the people who voted him out were pointing to the much better track record of Unilever of Nestle.

And saying kind of favor has, has failed here. And yet my understanding is that in terms of Danone's markets they're more active in countries like Brazil and Russia, more of their portfolio is there. Where there perhaps is less awareness around ESG credentials and purpose. And I think this is some of what your question is getting to, so it's a very good question.

I think it is getting played out. And my hope would be that the growing business case that there is around purpose, that there is around the likes of Unilever Patagonia. Getting strong financial results while also making a difference and, you know, prioritizing sustainable living that, that chart the course, and that it means that companies in other parts of the world, whether that is Poland, Brazil, Russia could look at these examples and learn from them and learn from a healthy track of development, rather than just sort of blindly following.

The more westernized profit maximizer nation businesses use your model. That would be my hope. And that is a growing business case.

Lech: [00:23:58] The definitely is a business case. I think the reason is this in, in like Eastern European countries or however you want to group them is in particular, maybe let's focus on Eastern European countries. They've gone, they've got history and what's going on now is the result of what countries have been through.

And the individuals in these countries have been in the societies. And that's why they've got these certain mindsets, that guy, that governor, it's just a field that creates this monolith, this kind of concrete block that is so difficult to break down and, and, and change. That's why it is so resistant because everybody's still kind of, you know, protecting their own and not wanting to share.

There's not that element of generosity and go, and I think being purpose led and having that, that, you know, thinking. About something greater than ourselves individually, but our organization is constantly, you need to be generous with that. You, you gave the example of Patagonia. All of a sudden they got $10 million.

Fantastic. Most organizations would just keep that. Probably do good things with it, but it takes a lot of courage. And again, generosity to say, actually, you know what, we didn't factor that for that we don't need, which we could use that money, but we can do something better with it. We can give it away, which is a fantastic thing.

And they're just going to take a while to, to catch that up. I'm guessing it's a generational thing because the people who were raised post-war in, in, in be a Soviet union or just outside of it, Are impacted by that. And these are the people who are running organizations. Let, let me, let me be clear.

Poland and other countries here have gone through fantastic, phenomenal changes in the last 15, 20 years compared to when I was, when I was living here, there's still a little bit catch up. And our mom was probably biased and far more critical of my, of my own, because I know so much potential. Then we can do so much better.

And I am kind of in that mindset. I don't give them, give, give these, these countries enough. Benefit. I'd like to ask you some of the questions that were sent in by listeners. And they'll probably jump around a couple of things. As well, some of them, we might've covered my open up a might open up a couple of other things, and now they've been sent in by listeners.

If you, if you are listening to, and you want to ask questions or for future guests, please feel free to join the community, join the mailing list. And that's kind of usually how I notify everyone. So you can find the links in the show notes and on the website. One of the questions that came up and I actually quite like it is should we have in our organizations that we've got CEOs, CFOs, CTOs CPLs and stuff like that, should we have a chief purpose officer or chief vision officer in our organizations?

What do you reckon.

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:26:42] oh, well, I have met, I work with the chief purpose officer. He gave himself that title. So a shout out to my colleague, Alberto or taro Gonzalez. He has that very job title and all his work is about making work more purposeful for others. I'm also thinking about Joe Alexander at BP, who was a geologist, worked for BP for a number of years.

And her story is wonderful. Very briefly be she became disillusioned with BP and left and went and did it questing worked for a couple of years for the not-for-profit blueprint for better business. That's also about helping leaders to be more purposeful and businesses to become a force for. Good.

And then she went to BPS, AGM. Meeting external to the organization and heard Bernard Looney, who is now the CEO talking about repurposing BP. So BP's a new purposes, re-imagining energy for people in the planet. And she went up to burn it and said, rather boldly, you can't do that without me. Anyway, she is now back working for BP as their pur.

I think her official title is purpose engagement manager. And her role is all about helping that purpose to be embedded at BP. So I think these are wonderful developments and I hope I'm always slightly cautious of the short word, but I hope we see much more of that happening in organizations.

Lech: [00:28:26] well, let's let let's hope. Let's help. I think. It wouldn't hurt. Let's put it that way. It wouldn't help to facilitate the process. And just to have that dedicated, cause I think you can have all sorts of titles, but if you got other responsibilities that you need to do, that's, that's not the point specifically, chief culture, officer, chief purpose, chief vision officer, whatever means, but that needs to be solely your role and responsibility, not just an honorary title.

I think that that's the key here. Another question, a common one, because we talked about purpose and vision actually is as, as a chief officer. Do you split, w let's just say purpose versus purpose versus vision. What's what's the difference because I think so you could fall throw mission into this as well.

People often confuse, these are unclear what they are. W how do you see this? It's not maybe definitions or hard facts is just your perspective on this.

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:29:21] I think the thing about purpose is it's about the why. So it's that enduring a meaningful reason to exist. So let's take another example. So Brompton cycles, the British engineering company, he made the fold-up bikes. That purpose is to change the way people live in cities. And they're a great example could have had their organizational purpose evolved.

And we talked about this.

earlier and they were saying actually, it was only once our exports international exports got to a certain level. And then we had enough global consciousness around environmental issues that we landed on that purpose for ourselves. So that's the purpose. I don't actually know what that means.

Vision of Brompton cycles might be, but the vision might be, you know, that. In a city like London in 10 years time, we see more people cycling to work than we do taking the cheap, you know? So the vision is to do with that desired future state that you could articulate, you could visualize. Whereas the purpose is it's the why?

So they're interrelated. You could say it really helps to unpack the purpose to have the vision and they are different.

Lech: [00:30:49] Brilliant answer. I love that. I love that. And another question that was sent in, and I think it would actually probably be something that we've mentioned at the very start links to, to it, to the cynicism. So what would you say to cynics critics of building purpose led organizations? How would you convince them?

This is not a fad. This is not a thing that is just a temporary marketing gimmick. How would you have that discussion? Not don't wanna call it argument. Let's call it a discussion.

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:31:21] Yeah, well, there is a growing business case. I cover some of the evidence and research in my book. And then, you know, since the book, my book was published, you know, there's more and more coming out. So if I just point to one reference, which is the book grow the pie by Alex Edmonds, who's a professor at London business school.

Who's doing a great job of like synthesizing the evidence. Speaking about, you know, this movement of purpose-driven business, the fact that there are financial results to back it. So that's one thing. That's one place I would encourage the skeptics to go, or we talked already about just paying attention to.

Actions, not just words and authentic leadership behaviors. And I would also point to, and again, we've covered it, the growing trend, particularly amongst younger people for meaningful work. Like I don't think that's going to go away. And finally, I think there's also a growing movement that sometimes gets called impact investing where some of the investment companies, while they're increasingly paying attention to ESG environmental, social governance metrics of organizations and saying actually.

It's the companies that are going to be sustainable in the future are the ones with the strong ESG metrics or the ones that have got the B Corp accreditation to get B Corp's accreditation. You need to have a clear purpose that makes a social difference. So if you actually put all those different trends together, I think it paints, you know, quite a compelling picture.

That just one on their own might do might not be convincing for the skeptic, but look across, look across the board.

Lech: [00:33:24] Thank you. Thank you very much. I hope it answers. I'm sure it answers the question I'm asked by, by one of the listeners. You and I could be talking about this for, you know, weeks on end. I'm thinking we've already had a, had a really good goal. I'd like, I'd like to finish up because I'm very mindful of your time and, and your being so generous for devoting so much to it.

One of the last questions I wanted to ask you is more about you. What have you got going on in the next few months? We, we, we are recording this at the end, towards the end of may what's summer ahead for you any exciting projects, anything that you're really looking forward to in, in the next, in the rest of 2021,

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:34:05] Yeah. Well, thank you. I mean, I'm, I'm keeping, going with my colleagues. I've mentioned Alberta will ready. And then there's Chris Blackwell also at the purpose collective and we offer free fortnightly sessions on zoom with guest speakers. But the topic is always purpose. Whether it's personal team organizational, we've got some masterclasses coming up focusing on team purpose in June and September.

So I'm bused about that. I'm coaching a number of leaders all about helping them go on their journey to become more purpose led. I really enjoy the one-to-one work. So helping them with their leadership timelines and digging into their crucible moments. So really enjoying doing that and. Maybe the final thing would be, I hope in the autumn that I'll pick up my pen again.

I'm writing short articles and blogs and things, but you know, I've learned to give myself a bit of a rest between big writing projects. But yeah, I have a sense of what I want to write next. So I'm hoping I'll get round to that later in the year. So

Lech: [00:35:21] Another book in the pipeline, maybe

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:35:24] let's see, let's see. But I'd really like to write something that speaks more to, and I mean, you spoke about it, that individual, that process of individual growth and, or individuation as psychologists would call it. And what supports that, what sometimes gets in the way you know, that element of self leadership, I would really like to write more in that territory.

So I'm hoping the introverted part of me will have enough time to do that.

Lech: [00:35:57] Well, if, if I may put it on the record I, I very politely request to be one of the first people that interview, once that book or whatever shape it takes comes out. I'd love to do that. It's been an absolute joy to to do have a chat with you today. You mentioned a lot of stuff in terms of that, the, the, the, the information content that you're putting out, what's the best way for people to follow that, that those blog posts and where can they find them?

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:36:21] oh, well, I'm active on LinkedIn, Sarah Rozenthuler. You're welcome to connect with me there on Twitter. And then my, the best way to get to my website is to go to bridgework And you could always send me an email there, or have a read of the blog posts there too.

Lech: [00:36:41] Brilliant. I'll include the links. And to just recommend yet again, the book to if, to everyone in powered by purpose. If you read the book, you will know why Sarah's business is cold, what it's cold. It's a fascinating, a bit of information about the name and actually what a bit of background, additional background about Sarah to FA it's fascinating.

I actually found it very, very interesting. I absolutely have shopped for the part of world and Shrewsbury. And actually, I'm going to ask you Shrewsbury or SROs, Bri.

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:37:12] it's hotly debated. I am. I am a my brother says Sri spree. So either way is fine, but I tend to say

Lech: [00:37:22] Okay. Are you, are you on talking terms with your brother?

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:37:24] Oh, we are, we are,

Yeah. Yeah.

Lech: [00:37:27] was just, I was, I wasn't sure how big a division that is, but yes, it definitely for people outside of the UK, this question does not make sense, but it's, it's a fascinating debate. It's the same as scone or scone, right? Isn't it? Indeed, It's, it's, it's different. It's a very, very interesting one. I wanted to thank you, first of all, as I said, for the generosity that you showed by staying with me for nearly an hour and a half chatting on this, but most of all, for the work that you've produced and for the book, because reading your book may makes me hopeful.

I often find myself in the situation where I'm kind of in a little bit of a despair about how things are in the world and how we build our organizations. And. I think that I often questioned the path I'm on as well with the work that I do, helping build better organizations that are people focused and making you reading a book makes me feel hopeful about that.

We do have a fighting chance if we do do that, and we need more, more authors, more work like these because the book is fascinating on so many levels at the, the, the simplest thing that I absolutely love. And I wish more books did. It is acknowledgements at the start. It's such a simple thing, but you acknowledge the people that helped you build this.

It's not an afterthought at the end of the book, when that no one reads it's at the start. If you really grateful. For the, for the help that you've received, you've received pulling them understand. Absolutely not to mention the content. It's just so, so easy to read so pleasurable. And most of all, I like how personal, a personal and emotional very often gets.

So I actually love that. Thank you for that. The work that you do, please continue doing it. And I love to have you on the show again, or just continue supporting and spreading the word that you are spreading.

Sarha Rozenthuler: [00:39:16] Oh, thank you so much. It's been a great pleasure. I've really enjoyed it. thank you.


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