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WGT: Becoming a self-organising company with Luke Kyte - part 2 [transcript]

Updated: Aug 26, 2021

Please enjoy this transcript of part 2 of my interview with Luke Kyte, Head of Culture at Reddico.


Following a cultural revolution, Reddico was named the 4th best place to work in the UK in 2020. Luke Kyte, Reddico's Head of Culture, shares the story behind the revolution and the journey that allowed them to become a self-organising company. Part 2 of 2.

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Lech: [00:00:00] Welcome to part two of my interview with Luke Kyte, the Head of Culture at Reddico, where we are talking about Reddico going through a cultural revolution of becoming a self organizing company.

In part two, we continue talking about the recruitment process, especially the onboarding of new people and getting them used to to work in, in a self-management environment and setting their own targets.

I also asked Luke about things that didn't exactly go to plan in their journey to becoming a self organizing company. Here's part two of my interview with Luke Kyte.

Once a person gets through all the throws and then gets an offer at Reddico and starts what happens there.

Luke Kyte: [00:01:02] Yeah. So from that point, what we tried to do in the board in now is I suppose, put them head first into the idea of self-management. So I suppose typically when you might join a normal company, You would meet with your manager and HR and stuff like that. And you would have, they would sort of say about, you've got to do this.

You've got to say, this is how you're going to do it. This is what the onboard what's, it's going to look like for your first couple of weeks. What we tried to do is to take an approach. You get people straight away into the mindset or become responsible for themselves and the way they work and what this looks like is just having a, at the moment, it's a Trello board.

And so they've got everything that they might company on each other. There's all these tickets, whatever place. And we say. You are now responsible for your onboarding. You can take it as quickly or slowly as you want. You could work on it around your priorities around never work. You're going to be doing on a daily basis.

When you want to learn about this, you can learn about this when he wants to schedule the initial catch up with this department. And you can do that. If he wants to do it, it's completely up to you. This is essentially like your one stop shop for everything that's going on. And how do you take those up to you?

How you want to onboard yourself is up to you. And then that includes like setting up three 60 reviews. So proud probation periods. So six month periods, when we say free that tried to set up three 60 reviews. So you can find out and get sort of feedback on things that you're doing. Well, things you could work on.

And some people manage that. They manage things like that. Journal is putting down instances every time they've aligned to the values or something they've done, which, which mindset it's a very co-founders and how we work. And just talking more about that. So it's. Instantly just frosted people straight into that idea of responsibility and self management, the way they can work.

And I suppose from there, it's just, just giving people that support they need as well when, when they need it. So there's obviously lots of things. I suppose. One of the, one of the challenges that we have often is people joining the company aren't used to this. So it's, it's one of those things where it's quite daunting to come into a business and it's then sort of say, you're now responsible for managing yourself.

You can now have as much load as you want. You can work wherever you want to. You can have a manager, you can be setting your own targets, you're going be making your decisions. Like there's no one to ask for approval and things like that. And we're aware that it can be a daunting experience and the people Oregon need additional help spoke to help them through that.

And to just reiterate the fact that this is what we do, this isn't just like a gimmick or it's just what we tell people. And then when you come in and it's gonna be something completely different. And so and so it's just having regular catch-ups as well. I kind of catch our people on a regular basis every few weeks to find that like how they get in on any questions, they've got an issues come up.

Or they, they can't like how as well, just to, to make sure that that, that wounded imperative is working for them as well, and that they, they feel like they've got that support where they need it. But apart from that, it's very much so on that person to start post, getting themselves head first into the organization and just, just doing things cause we used to have it that we would tell people when to do it.

So with, with sidewalk, I'll stop a conversation for you to meet the finance team or set up a conversation for you to meet SERC with betterment safe. But now it's the case, but this is the person to reach out to. If you want to have a conversation development team. Then then you need to arrange it. And it's just, it's, it's just changing it from being like a parent child relationship where the parent is trying to control what someone does and trying to kind of protect them and look after them and make sure they're okay to be in an adult relationship, which is like, you're an adult with just, you know, like you can do this.

So go ahead and do it. Sorry. It's quite a, I suppose it's a bit of a shock. Join me. But after, after a couple of weeks, couple of months, it all becomes seamless for them.

Lech: [00:04:52] it is a classic example of people shouting. We want freedom, give us that we want to do it, and then they actually get it and they go. Wow, this is, this is scary. What do I, what do I do now? I've seen that so many times, and I've actually been in those situations before where we kind of, you want that you want something and then you actually get it and you're done know what to do with it.

And it's, it's, it's fascinating. And I can, I can relate to that because autonomy requires a lot of you. I actually like what you said in terms of what company culture is for, for you that that's trust freedom and responsibility. I would throw another thing into that. And that's ownership taking ownership of the stuff that you do and the mistakes that you do.

And, and learning from that. And that's what kind of autonomy is, is being people who have been sent to work remotely work from home. And it's been a problem for organizations for many years, up until 2020, where they didn't have a choice at the kind of base of that. For me, that was always the lack of trust from organizations that will people do their jobs.

And some people revel in that freedom to be able to set their own hours and do stuff others struggle because they don't have that self-discipline and all, or all that is required. And that also, that's fine. You need to learn and cope and, and there's can be very uncomfortable. And, but that's where growth comes from.

And this brings me on to a mini segment within the, the interviews that I have, which I like to often refer to as we fucked up, which is basically the opportunities to ask my guests of what things have been gone wrong for them that they've didn't either. Foresee that things might go that way and unexpected negative results of something that was implemented or something that you hoped will work a certain way.

And it just went completely pear shaped because that's, I believe that's where the real learnings are. It's only a mistake. It's only a failure. If you fail to learn from that, otherwise, if you do, for me, that's an investment in kind of future decisions. What has that been for you? What has been that one thing that has completely taken you by surprise and had a negative impact that you've learned the most from

Luke Kyte: [00:07:03] This is a few things really, I think what often surprises people with it is that it's actually in general, what's quite seamlessly. So when I first sort of looked at the manifesto and looked at the sort of challenges ahead, I felt, Oh my God, like this step of going to work, but how could we possibly have a business that works in this way?

And we talked about mindset and style and really is a mindset shift, but the moment you can get on board with that and shift that mindset, you can start to understand how it will work. And we were quite fortunate that a lot of the biggest stuff we did were quite seamless. There's been things that I suppose we implemented near the start that we've had to come like constantly have iterations to, to try and tweak them and change them.

One of the ones that really stands out is setting your own targets. And we, we started trying to do this scene in sort of 2018, summer 2018. And so science people. We want to stop setting their own targets and we've start to think of a system you might use. So they went down the OKR route, which is a really popular, popular group in it's.

The idea is that aligned sort of companies traditionally top down, bottom up head ones, working in sofa sofa, a common or shared go. And we just found that people weren't Greenly engaged with their OKR as well. What their targets were. The completion rate was really low. And it was, it was, I suppose, early on, it was kind of thinking, what is this a case that actually this isn't work here that should be banal.

Really able to manage themselves and keep them that's August and things like that. But then again, it was like getting feedback from the team. Okay. Right. So it's not working because actually we're asking people to, to try and set too many and Nat geo chaos, isn't really working as a system and really code.

So we tweaked it again. And we took away the idea of having an objective. And we said like, try and set two keepers out on a quarterly basis or two targets you want to achieve. And then not at work gets in the way. And then it's kind of like people saying that it might be, they work is getting the word out to achieve extra stuff outside of what I would do on a daily basis.

So this is working again that you scratched your brain and thinking like we're trying to create this, this system where everyone's working in their own way and having that accountability and the ownership and responsibility, or see many peoples aren't doing their end of the stick and it's the bargain, but it's not.

That's not what it was. It was just that, like, I suppose, as a business, especially one, that's got high growth, I suppose we often talk about it gloss, and he's kind of like you get older, these, this business kind of all these clients come in and lots of work happens in those capacities needed. And so you grow the team and you recruit and then, and that means the capacity goes down again.

You've got more time. And then you take a more clients, more work comes in, again, become stretched again, and resources become stretched. And what you find is just that, that, that seems to happen all the time. And it just means that people don't sit in goals and targets that are more aligned to their everyday work and what they're doing on a daily basis or what their priorities are, would need to do.

The chances are they're not even going to stop thinking about it. And so we've had to get to a point where. We were just encouraging people to set these goals and these songs, which resemble our lines. So that daily work it's like, what is the priority going to be over three month periods rather than what is something extra that you could do as an additional target to like your everyday work and what your parents do, which hopefully encourages people to kind of think more about like different ways to do things and challenges that might come about and the issues that might present the, by just thinking differently about how they can achieve stuff going forward.

But at one point I think we aligned that the target gets some money, but I mean, I'm sure, you know, actually when you align things to money, it doesn't really make. Too much difference to how likely they are to be completed. So we learned that as well, and you've got the whole damn peak thing around money, not motivating people and things like that.

So we kind of pitch that like too. And so that's, it's one of those things that our target has been that real up and down sort of learning curve, trying to sort of adjust to it and try to assist them. And the other one was probably the energy, one tense, just trying to stop, I suppose. Cause when we first started this, we had that, that role, which was more of like a strategy type position.

But for awhile it was almost like they were a manager, but in everything but name and they were still doing a lot of the jobs possibilities and all the things that you might do. Like we're saying to people, we don't have managers, actually we've got someone that's acting like a manager and then doing it.

And so we had to kind of detach a lot of responsibilities from that. And I really did clear out what this is. They should always about what that thing is doing, which is about the growth of the department and about making sure that it's able to sort of compliment the rest of the business and improve the area.

And all these other responsibilities like probations and mediations are back and forth to other people. The teams manage and coaches could conform all the part around personal development. And my motivation supported things I averaged earlier, but that was probably, there'll be one. It's just making sure that what we were saying was not having managers, they mattered to managers.

So I was just trying to make sure that, that we didn't essentially solve it, not have that clash. So are two things that kind of stand out as not necessarily testing, but more learning curves and just adaptations iterations and stuff that we, we launched really early on. I guess that's what I would say stands out.

Lech: [00:12:18] In a way I want to ask you, what would you do differently? Next time around if you, if you, if you had the opportunity to do it again, but I've got a feeling that you've, you've sort of covered that in great detail in these two examples. They've you just mentioned, but is there an alum that you haven't mentioned that you think that you, you, you wish you'd done it differently or that you, next time you will definitely do it differently.

Luke Kyte: [00:12:40] with the targets and the goal setting, it was, so it was so overly complicated. I think in my head, I had all of this ambition of trying to tie it to values and the four pillars of what it is now four pillars of something. And I've been on values dripping and things like that in there, but it was just too complicated.

And ultimately we want people to sit there and targets. This is what people to be responsible for. Grabbing themselves during the pieces and helping to drive the business forwards and people should be able to do that in a really simplistic, easy way, which is, this is what I want to do is how I'm going to do it.

It doesn't need to be bells and whistles, as I say to a bit and used, just be really simple, really clear. And it's really concise.

Lech: [00:13:23] I'm trying to recall who said the simplicity is the ultimate sophistication and I can't remember. I can't remember. I don't know. I think my connection goes to towards Apple, either Steve jobs or Johnny I've, I've got a feelings come, comes from them. Or maybe I heard them say that, but it might be somebody before them, but I think it just, it applies it's I prefer simplicity.

I prefer minimalism the, and it kind of something that drove some of my previous managers nuts because I was a project manager and I wanted stuff to be simple. Didn't want to over-complicate stuff. And because I often find that if somebody, something needs to be complicated, Because that's what it requires.

That's fine. But I also find that we over-complicate things just for no particular reason, just to end the wave satisfy some needs that people might have that would proven ourselves proven our value, proven that we're doing a job, which is, I guess, something that is very common that people do things just to show that they're busy to prove their worth, rather than based on the value that they deliver.

In terms of the people that you had working for you at that time was that a lot of resistance to the changes or what did you already have the right group of people in, in, in the majority that fit the bill of what you want to do.

And they actually went and picked it up and went, yes. This rule and to do, and then just run with that.

Luke Kyte: [00:14:52] Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, fortunately. I suppose again, traditionally the resistance comes from the top, so it would come from like directors, boards shareholders, that kind of stuff. But when this was launched, it was driven ultimately by the darks, the business, the people that owned the business.

So we already have that in our favor that cause it has to be net by them. So the resistance, it wouldn't be a huge amount of resistance. I think the bits of maybe pick up on needs around like just making sure that the people you've got are going to be the right people for this journey. And when we first started looking at different options, again, I spoke to two different companies and implementation and obviously I couldn't really find a company that did everything that we did, but there were obviously with different companies that did different elements, there was companies that do no manager.

There were companies that et cetera, is there are companies where people have unlimited holiday. And that, as an example, was I rang up a company. Spiked today and I should direct. And so ask about, I mean, this club, does it go up to people, take the mic, like it does a gap year, so that kind of stuff. And they said that when they started a barren sort of cultural journey, they had to fire 30% of people who they knew wouldn't be able to survive in, in, in that model, in that way.

And it wouldn't work and they just had to make that cool. Luckily we didn't have to make the call where it was 30% of people, but at the time there were a couple of people who w I suppose we knew weren't really going to be right for this. And over time they did sort of feel trout and to be the business for one reason or the other.

And it's just one of those things where I kind of mentioned it earlier, but not everyone's going to be right for this journey. And what you want is you want to create, I countable teams where I suppose there's a thing where like, It's not really exciting. My own staff might out, but you, you to say 95% of the people could work it this way, say, and then they can be responsible.

They can cope well with trusted freedom responsibility. They want to do it sadly, how they want to work. And they're always going to be 5% of people, but calm or they'll take the make or a system, or they will kind of trust, take care arrived, or that kind of stuff. And what you want to do is you want to build these teams where the 95% of people can hold the 5% accountable and essentially just create that culture where you're building systems and policies and framework for the 95%.

And ultimately traditional management, traditional businesses are built to survive the 5%. It's like we have all these rules and policies and procedures in case someone takes the mic. But actually that's such a few and far between example, but everyone else is suffering because of it. And so I was supposed to answer the question.

In a, in a long winded way. When we didn't have too many issues of resistance, but there were a couple of people that, that probably weren't right. And we just wanted to make sure that we can build these teams to work and still have that culture account and know what those expectations are.

Lech: [00:17:51] That's that is very fortunate. And I'm actually not surprised about the organization that you've mentioned that they had to let go of 30% of their people. That is, that is very common such a massive pivot in how things are done. You, you will have unfortunate, there will be collateral. That's what, what, what, what it is.

And it's a question of how you do that. And this style of working and self-organization is not for everybody. As you pointed out a 95% of 5%, whatever the stat is the kind of the model they're the approach I'd like to take is that we are all individual and we've got different paths to growth and different speed of growth.

And that's fine providing we grow in the same direction. Because what often happens is we, we grow, but we don't grow in that same direction. And we co we become going further and further apart, and that's where the problem starts. And that's something that people have to be aligned in. And I think that's what has to be established at the process of in, in the recruitment process.

But then it's normal after a period of time, potentially the past naturally to diverge. And this is again that shows the maturity of an organization where you can turn around and say, listen, we've had a great ride. We've been working for two, three years or however long. But now we've got different paths and that's that's okay.

And you mutually agree. You need to go in separate directions and you kind of help each other out. Yeah. The organization has an advocate because they've they've looked after him or her and after they left, there's only good things that they can say about each other. And that's, that's a fantastic place to be, but it does take a lot of discipline to, right.

And I really liked how you said w how you, how you put it, that the, you want the majority to be kind of holding the others accountable. And that often we do have these roles for that 5% for that small number of people that actually, yes, it keeps them in check, but it so negatively impacts the rest of the group.

And you see it so often, and that's, that's, that's such a shame in a boat it's really, really got to hear that you you do it slightly differently. So make it a little bit more practical, although actually come to think of that. You've already made it very practical, all the details that you gave. So if we could make it even more practical if somebody wants even organization, once to go down this route, a similar route of what you've mentioned, where would you say they start kind of the first place that they should look at?

You've mentioned a theoretical. It was flexible working. Is that for everybody? Is that where you would start again? Or is there another place organizations, people within organization can, who wants to transform their organizations can start

Luke Kyte: [00:20:27] Yeah. So, I mean, I would say the, in terms of the starting point is with the team and in some way, having a survey or a feedback option with the teams about sort of staff 80 back and understanding what the pain points are in that organization, because ultimately that the people that are working at the business on a day to day, you see things very differently to how the managers might do or how Aleisha might do, or that might be.

And so initially start out with some kind of benchmark. So there are loads of different options of a C4. You got things like the EMPS surveys, which is, it's a very simple place to start and get a score from that and get feedback from the people just to kind of give us a bit of a benchmark. You then got more advanced things like you've got.

Things like faces and people inside a great place to work schemes, things like that, which give you so if I use anonymous surveys that grabs the team, but have statements of like 150 different statements, which are anything from like being clear on expectations to what the policies and all that kind of stuff.

It's like. So that kind of give you a really good soul platform as well, about where to start in terms of what actually people are saying isn't working particularly well and where it's going to grow in terms of what you do with that information is making sure that first of all, you've listened to it.

And then action as well, because the worst thing you can do is ask the team or, or try to get responses to a survey and then not doing anything with it. And then just do another survey in six months time or a year's time, and then they'll do anything with it and all that kind of stuff. So you then need to put a bit of a roadmap in terms of what that looks like now, for us, that was a manifesto, which was like, these are.

The six areas that we call it, like it as a business, we want to change. And they can be as, as big or as small as the business wants. And then this is the plan we're going to do. So this is, this is point a where we are now over this period of time, that might be three months, six months, 12 months. This is what we're going to do, and this is how we're going to roll it out.

We don't necessarily know you have to go there and say, this is every single thing we're going to do. This is how we're going to do it. Because ultimately when you get to that point, you can work out. Then now you get into it. So I put together a mind map initially based on what I thought was going to be the easiest thing to do.

And so things included, I thought would be people setting their own targets, flexible working is an easy thing to roll out. And then what was going to be the hardest thing to roll out things like emergency managers and how they think in place for that. And so that was more towards the end of the roadmap.

So start creating this roadmap of what that looks like, what the future looks like for this, this culture and put someone in, I suppose, one of the big things that. Can really help with the success is making sure there's someone who's dedicated to doing this. Not someone who's just doing it as part of their job, because it will never be priority because things come up.

Our priorities come up. This is one of the, I think one of the biggest successes for this it's that the director said, look, it, maybe it didn't this accurately, but making sure there was someone who this was going to be their job or this role role was going to be to roll this out, to make sure this happens.

And per hour going into the team, I'll send the problem. So when we come in to fix her work in, and I'm thinking to myself, well, what's going to happen here, or how's this going to work, but set up meetings and team and getting more information about how you think this could work in a way that's right for you and for the business and where it's not going to break.

It's not going to go bang, like just constantly getting feedback. I'm one of those people that I probably get too much feedback now. Like I've always got a Google form going in. Or so if I was something trying to get feedback from the team, it's probably probably annoying. There's always the stuff that verus would say, because I just want it to be collaborative.

I game about culture is want it to be, it's not about my culture or the darks culture. It's that team culture. And then any way you can make your team cope just by getting the team involved throughout making sure that everyone feels like they've been heard and listened to and can collaborate on this and build it together.

So that when we win different rules for culture, it's not my own personal revolt or my own passion of sort of accreditation it's. This is what a team effort, like if I stepped out tomorrow, The coach is still going to work because everyone's come together and created a supportive, inspiring, responsible, quite set to work.

And so that's something where you go, you've got to be really key. It's just including the team that we, every step of the way, every step of that journey. And so I think that's, that's what I would say. Start it's not necessarily go right tomorrow. We are going to be, to become flexible. They're going to be more flexible.

They start saying, what did the team one? And then what does that look like? And how can we build that out over X amount of X amount of time. That's where I'll stop.

Lech: [00:24:59] thank you. That's that's very useful. And in terms of any resources, you mentioned corporate rebels. Definitely a fantastic place to, to start a few, if you want to educate yourself more, but you mentioned that you went out to organizations that you, you read a lot of books and how things can be done.

Are there any particular ones that stood out for you? Do you suggest they recommend people look at.

Luke Kyte: [00:25:20] Yeah. So there's there's a similar company to Reddico insult the same industry, which is propelling it, which is a company down in Brighton. And there's a book called Super Engaged, which has got loads of great ideas in that as well by Nikki Gatenby there's a book called Brave New Work, which also has a lot of ideas.

And another one called Happy Manifesto, which is by someone who Henry Stewart. Who's a really well-known person, especially when it comes to managers and people being mistreated, or I might have shared different approaches to how that might look like when it comes to. So latest and things like that.

And he works for a company called happy believe it or not. So that's a, it all fits in pretty well there. And he's the, he's the chief happiness officer, which is a pretty cool title. That's, that's a really good place to start. And then when you really want to get even more heavy into it, I mentioned it at the start Frederic Laloux and Reinventing Organizations is kind of taking the idea of culture and redefining it to being this, this self-managed self organizing kinds of next revolutionary type business.

And it's like loads of videos of mine as well. I can't quite remember the name of the website. You're talking to me inventing organizations and we'll back to Google. You'll find the website and it's got loads and loads of videos about how you can solve these common problems people might have when you moved to sort of self organizations and self-organize principles.

Talk to that. Some, some good, some good ideas there.

Lech: [00:26:44] Definitely I'll I'll do my best to find all those resources include them in as links for, for people to look at in the show notes, we talked a fair bit about what you've done so far. What does the future hold for you in terms of, Reddico where are you going next?

How things are going to develop any projects, any things that you're really excited about? You can't wait to put them in place or you can't wait to see the results of

Luke Kyte: [00:27:08] Yeah. So, I mean also from like a culture standpoint, so I am a very competitive person. And I only fry if it's a competition or if you can win something and that's, that's what motivates me. It's one of my big, so I would say, and so for me, it's like becoming the best host to work in the UK or the best place to work as well.

Does. That's where I want to be. Like, I'm not happy with full, like full is really good that we came fourth last year. That's great. I think this month, or I don't know how I'm situated. This is, this is going out, but this next couple of months we'll find out where we are this year. And hopefully it's number one.

If it's not more work to do. So. I like my jobs. I don't got my jobs completed until we we've got to number one, at least in, in, in, in the UK or Europe or the world. And even then it's one of those things where it's constantly evolving and constantly changing, constantly tweaking things and making sure that we don't.

Let's rest on our laurels, but we kind of keep ahead of the con, not just the competition in terms of our industry, but just staying ahead of kind of that whole cultural game and being kind of the pioneers and the radical company that really is sort of trying to test things and really push things to the limit and really get the team as much sort of freedom and trust in responsibility as possible.

The next big thing really is going to come out of a ease around salaries because we're at a point now people are managing their own careers. And I think the next step is where people can promote themselves. And. Increase our own salary and set their own salary and things like that. So that's the one that still coming next over the next sort of three months is, is working out exactly how that works.

So that, that can be done in a way where it's not necessarily gonna blow the bank optimum one. I'll say that because again, it's all based on trust. But that's, that's kinda, the next big thing is sort of salaries and what that looks like and how we can manage that in a way where it's sort of self managed and what outlet you already individual level.

And then from a business standpoint, it's just so massive growth. So. Again, as a business, we won so many awards over the last couple of years. I mentioned earlier, we wanted the best agency in Europe last year. We've we've just launched a new sort of online sort of speed checker for websites.

We're creating really sort of free tools that people can use as well. Online. So the dev team that I produce, some of those have really amazing stuff. We're sort of growing in that area of the business quite a lot as well. So yeah, if it almost check them out and then it's really credit credit UK it's just, yeah, it's a really exciting time.

So also, if anyone is looking to join, it's a really exciting time to join us because it's just, we're just grabbing it together. It's a sort of 50, 60 people over the next next year or so, and then really just go from there and just become, hopefully just a amazing place to work, but also an amazing place that does amazing work for clients as well.

And it's just ultimately the best place to work and the best company to do the work.

Lech: [00:30:02] Okay, by the sounds of it, you're definitely on the right track to, to do that. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed for you too, to reach first place in whatever ranking state you. And and I'm also curious what will happen when you do get first place, what happens to your competitive nature, but maybe I'll invite you as a guest once you've you, you reached that to kind of, to talk about that, what happens, what happens next?

If people do want to keep in touch with you, go get in touch with you, or kind of find out a little bit more about Reddico, what you do and mostly follow what's going on for you and, and the future of, for yourself and the organization. What's the best way of doing that?

Luke Kyte: [00:30:40] Yeah, so there's not an additional waste. So I'm on LinkedIn, so just leave kite. So yeah, happy to connect on there and share information and also jump on calls people. So if they want to find out more or kind of pick my brains about different areas of the business that we. So do you from a cultural sites also on Twitter, follow me on Twitter.

And they, my email as well, we just So again, always happy to kind of speak to people and hopefully inspire them or help them with any problems that they're facing from a coach standpoint. Even if you want to pick my brains or try and just to pirate things like always happy to give my time for that as well.

Lech: [00:31:16] And look, when I started this podcast I had, and I continue having this vision and hope that I will be talking to organizations who actually yeah. Break the mold and do things differently and are at the forefront of what I believe is the future of work. And many times, I think I'm a bit of a crazy idealist idealist and that we're talking about, I'm talking about organizations that are just a little bit too good to be true by, by talking to people like yourself and seeing organizations like Reddico makes me certain that a I'm not completely unhinged.

And, but secondly, that we are going in the right direction, it will take us a little while for this to become the norm rather than the exception is at the moment. But we're definitely heading that. Luke, it's been an absolute joy getting to learn from you about Reddico, about your journey. I'm looking forward to finding out a lot more for of what the future holds for you, but thank you very much for your time.

Luke Kyte: [00:32:11] I think very much. It's been an absolute pleasure.


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